Good points , the apostles are the objects ..it still brings to mind the parable of the unforgiving servant though. Granted, Judas was gone at the point Jesus breathed on the 11 when these words were spoken.
And yes the interlinear says "them" but only in the first line...in the second line it does not and that was the very little detail that stuck out to me.
1:
"If any of you might forgive the sins
THEY are forgiven THEM
2:
"If any you might retain
THEY are retained".
1. They/them
2. They
I just found it somewhat intriguing that the 2nd "they" ( regarding their sins) wasn't also attached to them.
Again. It's nothing prominent enough if write a book about or probably even share, it was just something I noticed and wondered about.
Covering John 20 Monday with the study I invited a bunch of Catholic women to at my home, so I'm obsessively combing thru verses like these with as much scrutiny as possible so I can adequately respond the the best of the ability God gives me :)
The reason "them" is not repeated again is because it is understood. It happens the same way in English. For example:
"If you pay for the groceries, they will be paid for. If you don't pay then they won't be."
There are many things we omit here because context provides them:
"If you pay for the groceries, they (the groceries) will be paid for. If you don't pay (for the groceries) then they (the groceries) won't be paid for."
That's true and a good point. And eventually I quit overthinking it even though I knew it was a bit of a stretch from the outset.
I think your best points in your video was pointing out the perfect passive tense in the Greek language and tying it to the same Matthew 18:18. So I'll take my time in explaining that tomorrow when we discuss.
I had to laugh, at the end of it I was telling my husband the difficulty with this verse and how important it was to get it right because of how the it can be interpreted for deceit, so when I read him the verse he said exactly the same thing I asked you!! "Maybe their own sins aren't forgiven"...and then I had to play devil's advocate on him and that whole conversation made me realize how silly the whole thing sounded so thank you Jesus!!
Anyhoo. 🙏 Thanks. I use the fox chat for so much , but I appreciate your time answering what actually sounds ridiculous to me now ( my initial thoughts!).
Can I pick your brain about something? You speak about john 20:23 "if you forgive the sins of any , they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld " that's the esv translation I noticed the end of the scripture doesn't say "it is withheld from THEM", at least in this translation.
The YLT is similar :
"if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain, they have been retained"
Is there any possibility that when Jesus says" it is withheld "...He's not talking about the person you haven't forgiven ...he's talking about the unforgivers own sins??
That's probably a stretch., but I just noticed the forgiven sins attach "they are forgiven THEM" and the unforgiven sins just say "it is withheld" and not "it is withheld from THEM". And this made me ponder the possibilities.
The objects are the apostles, who have been given authority to proclaim the kingdom. This comes with discernment also, to understand who may be reprobate based on their rejection -- so they have authority to decide these matters and can feel confident that God is with them. The point is more that God is with them, not that they are now little gods or that this power has been passed down.
It does not make sense the other way around, in that if they (apostles) retain forgiveness that their sins are forgiven, or that their sins are not forgiven. In both cases this is nonsensical, because the apostle's sins were forgiven.
Good points , the apostles are the objects ..it still brings to mind the parable of the unforgiving servant though. Granted, Judas was gone at the point Jesus breathed on the 11 when these words were spoken.
And yes the interlinear says "them" but only in the first line...in the second line it does not and that was the very little detail that stuck out to me.
1:
"If any of you might forgive the sins
THEY are forgiven THEM
2:
"If any you might retain
THEY are retained".
1. They/them
2. They
I just found it somewhat intriguing that the 2nd "they" ( regarding their sins) wasn't also attached to them.
Again. It's nothing prominent enough if write a book about or probably even share, it was just something I noticed and wondered about.
Covering John 20 Monday with the study I invited a bunch of Catholic women to at my home, so I'm obsessively combing thru verses like these with as much scrutiny as possible so I can adequately respond the the best of the ability God gives me :)
The reason "them" is not repeated again is because it is understood. It happens the same way in English. For example:
"If you pay for the groceries, they will be paid for. If you don't pay then they won't be."
There are many things we omit here because context provides them:
"If you pay for the groceries, they (the groceries) will be paid for. If you don't pay (for the groceries) then they (the groceries) won't be paid for."
That's true and a good point. And eventually I quit overthinking it even though I knew it was a bit of a stretch from the outset.
I think your best points in your video was pointing out the perfect passive tense in the Greek language and tying it to the same Matthew 18:18. So I'll take my time in explaining that tomorrow when we discuss.
I had to laugh, at the end of it I was telling my husband the difficulty with this verse and how important it was to get it right because of how the it can be interpreted for deceit, so when I read him the verse he said exactly the same thing I asked you!! "Maybe their own sins aren't forgiven"...and then I had to play devil's advocate on him and that whole conversation made me realize how silly the whole thing sounded so thank you Jesus!!
Anyhoo. 🙏 Thanks. I use the fox chat for so much , but I appreciate your time answering what actually sounds ridiculous to me now ( my initial thoughts!).
Have a great week!
Can I pick your brain about something? You speak about john 20:23 "if you forgive the sins of any , they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld " that's the esv translation I noticed the end of the scripture doesn't say "it is withheld from THEM", at least in this translation.
The YLT is similar :
"if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain, they have been retained"
Is there any possibility that when Jesus says" it is withheld "...He's not talking about the person you haven't forgiven ...he's talking about the unforgivers own sins??
That's probably a stretch., but I just noticed the forgiven sins attach "they are forgiven THEM" and the unforgiven sins just say "it is withheld" and not "it is withheld from THEM". And this made me ponder the possibilities.
The interlinear shows "them":
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/20-23.htm
The objects are the apostles, who have been given authority to proclaim the kingdom. This comes with discernment also, to understand who may be reprobate based on their rejection -- so they have authority to decide these matters and can feel confident that God is with them. The point is more that God is with them, not that they are now little gods or that this power has been passed down.
It does not make sense the other way around, in that if they (apostles) retain forgiveness that their sins are forgiven, or that their sins are not forgiven. In both cases this is nonsensical, because the apostle's sins were forgiven.