Catholics, Orthodox and even many Protestants, believe that Jesus’ words in John 6 are to be taken literally, hinging salvation on participating in the doctrine of transubstantiation.
Amazing timing, Tudor! I just recently had a discussion about Transsubstantiation and Consubstantiation with my Catholic friend. Hyped to get some strong and defeating arguments from your presentation! Thank you so very much!
Tudor, I AGREE Transubstantiation, is wrong, wrong, wrong. John 6: 63 is explicit about eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ: The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
John never uses metaphors, figuratively, etc - He uses ONTOLOGICAL STATEMENTS - Our reality is derived from God: He is more real than we are. Please do not assume that all celebration of The Lord's Supper is believed to be eating of real flesh and drinking real blood. This is the old argument about literalism, literalistic, literal: What did Jesus say? eat HIS, drink HIS - I will believe HIS Word above yours while agreeing with you that we reject RC Transubstantion. His Word is plain. We are not participating in cannibalism.
All the images in JOHN are ONTOLOGICAL - THEY DERIVE THEIR REALITY FROM THE CREATIVE WORD AND POWER OF THE SPIRIT - Jesus made it clear what He meant. This applies to every illustration - Jesus' is the Temple (aka Revelation where there is no temple because God is the temple); A vine is derived out of the nature of God. He is life. He is the door, gate, ladder, portal.. the meaning is clear. We come into the Kingdom of God through HIM. John 4 & 7 water refers to the SPIRIT from which water gets its life.
We can become so transformed that we become bigoted to protect our new insight.
THE ONTOLOGY OF JOHN'S GOSPEL IS SPELT OUT IN JOHN 1: 1-3 HE IS LIGHT AND LIFE, ETC - THE MYSTERY OF FAITH IS THAT WE ARE INCORPORATED INTO THE BODY/TEMPLE OF CHRIST - WE CANNOT COMPREHEND DIVINE MYSTERIES: 1 Peter 3; we are incorporated into God, not as God, but in beautiful, unimaginable mystery.
I am not Catholic.
Faith is a gift, grace, the Spirit, the Word - ah, the Word - is that literal or figurative in John 1? The Word became... The Word is real, the speaking, the breath of God that takes physical form, who came in many ways (Hebrews 1) , the Tetragrammaton: I AM WHO I AM. He who speaks takes Incarnate form gives us spiritual food - people must partake in Jesus' spiritual food given in form of His spiritual being, a resurrected body and blood. The feast of the Lamb and Bride will end the earthly eating when we celebrate in the KofG.
The Jewish leaders did not comprehend that the Messiah would come as God in the Flesh, the Son of Man who is His first coming came in mercy and His next coming will be for judgment.
I never said you should not have the Lord's supper or that it's wrong. But you either believe Jesus was speaking literally which is Catholicism or he was speaking figuratively about faith which is the consistent theme throughout the scriptures. If you believe he's speaking literally then you have to justify the sacramental system because you have to do something physical in order to be saved. That's the issue.
There is a difference between literalism (Cannibalism) and literal (Spiritual by embodied Word and power of Spirit which is gifted to faith. John 6: 63 is all gift of a supernatural eating in which we do not do anything but receive the supernatural food through faith - no words can explain it - the gift is given and must be separated from performance and rituals. We cannot add to the work of Christ as you well know. I am merely affirming GIFT received through faith of supernatural life that comes from the risen Christ. No DOING on our part, only the celebration you wish to say.
I am sorry that your astute perceptions, and anti-RC, which are right block the clear reading of John 6(: 63) - no symbolic, but very real eating of a supernatural meal by Word & Spirit, received in faith.
The early Protestant reformation rejected John 6 as to do with the Lord's Supper because of anabaptist teaching. You are right that we receive it, but that it is not merely a memorial meal, but an ONTOLOGICAL IMPARATATION OF A SUPRANATURAL, INCOMPREHENSIBLE GIFT.
I understand literalism AS cannibalism, and literal AS supernatural gift and just as we are the body/temple of Christ on earth hold to the clear words of God: "my body and blood given and shed for you for the forgiveness of your sins" is a tangible gift of faith, a reassurance, not a human work.. I cannot imagine that the New Covenant is less than the Old, nor a return to the Old. Are we really divided or just misunderstanding each other.
The NT rejects works but not gifts. Jesus' words of INSTITUTION are gifts. May God help us all draw together in spirit and truth for that is His Word (Jh 17: 7), one Incarnate now by His Grace we can participate in something beyond imagination, incorporated into Him - body and temple.
Regardless, you should continue your awakening of others by what you do, as your content is very worth while.
You are creating a category that does not exist, that is neither here nor there, which is really just mysticism and gnosticism. There are over 30 times in the gospel of John were Jesus speaks figuratively and in parable. This is not an exception. The central issue of the gospels, especially John, is faith. Believe. Believe. Believe. Believe. It is written everywhere. That is the issue. A symbol for believing is consuming or eating or partaking of or drinking, and this is consistent with the Old Testament. It is not just a cognitive belief, but a full participation, a trusting relationship that is intimate. That's the kind of belief we are called to.
So when you invent something about a physical thing that must be done and call it a "supernatural" situation, you are now bringing in confusion to something that was being stated spiritually to address a heart issue. Luther couldn't let go if his Catholicism when it came to the Eucharist and oscillated much like you are expressing with all sorts of confused ideas that were neither here nor there, neither full on transubstantiation nor as a symbol of faith by way of fellowship with other believers.
The moment you want to ascribe a "supernatural" quality to getting together and eating with other believers you are one step away from Catholicism. The supernatural quality is in a spiritual bond shared by believers as they share a meal in memory of Christ. Beyond that you get into mysticism, and delineating a specific action that must be done that is necessary for salvation -- because after all, if it is supernatural in some kind of physical way then why wouldn't true believers do it as a sign of them being saved? You're getting into murky territory.
The central issue of John is faith, and the Jews' struggle was accepting Jesus as God and believing and trusting in Him as God. That is the hard teaching. If that's the case then the Lord's supper is about having communion with other believers in remembrance of Jesus as God, as the propitiation and as the future Redeemer that is returning. Is such a meal spirit filled and "supernatural" in the sense that the Spirit would be guiding the interactions? Yes. I agree.
Is there a supernatural, quasi-transubstantiated situation where you are consuming supernatural spiritual food that's physical food but actually is spiritual food too because somehow it has a supernatural quality because of you initiating the Lord's supper? No. That's just Catholicism without openly being called Catholicism. So learning to rightly divide is important, and I don't get the sense that you distinguishing what supernatural actually is according to the bible.
Respectfully, you believe in a super/supranatural God and that “The supernatural quality is in a spiritual bond shared by believers as they share a meal in memory of Christ. Beyond that you get into mysticism,” You cheery pick your words, YOUR words, not Christs. You make enemies of the plain words of Christ in the Context for which He came - to establish a New and Greater Covenant by which we do NOT reduce His Words (HIMSELF) to less than He is, a super/supranatural God. I have NOT supported transubstantiation, NOR mysticism. You make inferences and further divide the Word of God. Let the mystery of the Lord’s Supper stand beside the mystery of the Incarnation and the Ascended Lord who enables us to share in both tangible and verbal presentations of His Presence - BOTH THROUGH FAITH ALONE. It is easy to make enemy of all Christendom, stand alone as the superior interpreter of Scripture, than receive a merciful gift of Jesus’ Body and Blood, clearly not canabilistic, as the LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD. It is all by faith!!!!!!!!!!! Alone!!!!!!!!! Why doubt and accuse???????? IF THE LIFE IS IN THE BLOOD, then it is clear in the OT that sacrifices of any flesh and blood did not have saving life. They were prefigurations, types, of Jesus’ Body and Blood to come, whose body and alone we can receive any benefit done. That is not a work of man, but God coming into us in HIS MYSTERIOUS GRACE.
If we reduce The Lord’s Supper to a symbolic gesture then did Jesus really need to die and shed His body? I believe that is the heresy of Docetism - He only seemed to have taken on flesh and blood, or a modified ‘that He did so till before He suffered and died’ (yet He daily bore our sins and griefs). There are many variations of heresies. Having FAITH and BELIEVING are not false opposites to RECEIVING THE VERY WORDS AND GIFTS OF CHRIST. THERE IS NO WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS IN RECEIVING. THAT IS A TWIST, A SLANT. The Church Fathers and Great Reformers were not perfect. All who received the Gospel of Christ by faith will be saved (the Gospel of Christ:1 Corinthians 15: 3-4; I John; etc you know the summaries). No one gets into heaven by a perfect score card, having all of the answers, not me, not you, not professors. I am going to take their lead and trust that you are still teachable and humble to learn. Faith = believing the words of the WORD who draws us into Mystical Union (1 Peter), by a greater covenant (Hebrews) than?? The Old!!! The Gospel of John repeats over and over that He gave His Body and Blood for the forgiveness of our sins. People can read the words for themselves. It is not how many times a key word is used that proves your or my point. It is what each key word points to - Christ, His sacrificial death once for all to end the old and take us into Himself by faith in His very words. There is nothing that turns those words I just wrote into a human work.
The glory in believing is not in symbolism, but in Divine mystery and the fulfilment of God’s New Covenant for the forgiveness of our sins. That is not transubstantiation, nor is it re-sacrifice. Those Papal pompous rites and abuses, as you know, migrated into some sort of sacerdotal/sanctified abuse of vestry boys. But you are well informed so we can agree on that history. Believe, believe, believe, believe - what? In The Person, the Words, Acts and Gifts of Christ, whose word is effectual. My participation in Holy Communion is not my work, but a Divine Gift and Privilege we are given in communion with all who truly believe..
May God 'Sanctify/consecrate us in His Truth' Jh 17:17 (Ps 96)
Respectfully, you believe in a super/supranatural God and that “The supernatural quality is in a spiritual bond shared by believers as they share a meal in memory of Christ. Beyond that you get into mysticism,” You cheery pick your words, YOUR words, not Christs. You make enemies of the plain words of Christ in the Context for which He came - to establish a New and Greater Covenant by which we do NOT reduce His Words (HIMSELF) to less than He is, a super/supranatural God. I have NOT supported transubstantiation, NOR mysticism. You make inferences and further divide the Word of God. Let the mystery of the Lord’s Supper stand beside the mystery of the Incarnation and the Ascended Lord who enables us to share in both tangible and verbal presentations of His Presence - BOTH THROUGH FAITH ALONE. It is easy to make enemy of all Christendom, stand alone as the superior interpreter of Scripture, than receive a merciful gift of Jesus’ Body and Blood, clearly not canabilistic, as the LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD. It is all by faith!!!!!!!!!!! Alone!!!!!!!!! Why doubt and accuse???????? IF THE LIFE IS IN THE BLOOD, then it is clear in the OT that sacrifices of any flesh and blood did not have saving life. They were prefigurations, types, of Jesus’ Body and Blood to come, whose body and alone we can receive any benefit done. That is not a work of man, but God coming into us in HIS MYSTERIOUS GRACE.
If we reduce The Lord’s Supper to a symbolic gesture then did Jesus really need to die and shed His body? I believe that is the heresy of Docetism - He only seemed to have taken on flesh and blood, or a modified ‘that He did so till before He suffered and died’ (yet He daily bore our sins and griefs). There are many variations of heresies. Having FAITH and BELIEVING are not false opposites to RECEIVING THE VERY WORDS AND GIFTS OF CHRIST. THERE IS NO WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS IN RECEIVING. THAT IS A TWIST, A SLANT. The Church Fathers and Great Reformers were not perfect. All who received the Gospel of Christ by faith will be saved (the Gospel of Christ:1 Corinthians 15: 3-4; I John; etc you know the summaries). No one gets into heaven by a perfect score card, having all of the answers, not me, not you, not professors. I am going to take their lead and trust that you are still teachable and humble to learn. Faith = believing the words of the WORD who draws us into Mystical Union (1 Peter), by a greater covenant (Hebrews) than?? The Old!!! The Gospel of John repeats over and over that He gave His Body and Blood for the forgiveness of our sins. People can read the words for themselves. It is not how many times a key word is used that proves your or my point. It is what each key word points to - Christ, His sacrificial death once for all to end the old and take us into Himself by faith in His very words. There is nothing that turns those words I just wrote into a human work.
The glory in believing is not in symbolism, but in Divine mystery and the fulfilment of God’s New Covenant for the forgiveness of our sins. That is not transubstantiation, nor is it re-sacrifice. Those Papal pompous rites and abuses, as you know, migrated into some sort of sacerdotal/sanctified abuse of vestry boys. But you are well informed so we can agree on that history. Believe, believe, believe, believe - what? In The Person, the Words, Acts and Gifts of Christ, whose word is effectual. My participation in Holy Communion is not my work, but a Divine Gift and Privilege we are given in communion with all who truly believe.
May God 'Sanctify/consecrate us in His Truth' Jh 17:17 (Ps 96)
Amazing timing, Tudor! I just recently had a discussion about Transsubstantiation and Consubstantiation with my Catholic friend. Hyped to get some strong and defeating arguments from your presentation! Thank you so very much!
Great to hear, hopefully it helps
Thank you. Repent repent repent for those who have spent years canabalizing our Lord! I love you!
Tudor, I AGREE Transubstantiation, is wrong, wrong, wrong. John 6: 63 is explicit about eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ: The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
John never uses metaphors, figuratively, etc - He uses ONTOLOGICAL STATEMENTS - Our reality is derived from God: He is more real than we are. Please do not assume that all celebration of The Lord's Supper is believed to be eating of real flesh and drinking real blood. This is the old argument about literalism, literalistic, literal: What did Jesus say? eat HIS, drink HIS - I will believe HIS Word above yours while agreeing with you that we reject RC Transubstantion. His Word is plain. We are not participating in cannibalism.
All the images in JOHN are ONTOLOGICAL - THEY DERIVE THEIR REALITY FROM THE CREATIVE WORD AND POWER OF THE SPIRIT - Jesus made it clear what He meant. This applies to every illustration - Jesus' is the Temple (aka Revelation where there is no temple because God is the temple); A vine is derived out of the nature of God. He is life. He is the door, gate, ladder, portal.. the meaning is clear. We come into the Kingdom of God through HIM. John 4 & 7 water refers to the SPIRIT from which water gets its life.
We can become so transformed that we become bigoted to protect our new insight.
THE ONTOLOGY OF JOHN'S GOSPEL IS SPELT OUT IN JOHN 1: 1-3 HE IS LIGHT AND LIFE, ETC - THE MYSTERY OF FAITH IS THAT WE ARE INCORPORATED INTO THE BODY/TEMPLE OF CHRIST - WE CANNOT COMPREHEND DIVINE MYSTERIES: 1 Peter 3; we are incorporated into God, not as God, but in beautiful, unimaginable mystery.
I am not Catholic.
Faith is a gift, grace, the Spirit, the Word - ah, the Word - is that literal or figurative in John 1? The Word became... The Word is real, the speaking, the breath of God that takes physical form, who came in many ways (Hebrews 1) , the Tetragrammaton: I AM WHO I AM. He who speaks takes Incarnate form gives us spiritual food - people must partake in Jesus' spiritual food given in form of His spiritual being, a resurrected body and blood. The feast of the Lamb and Bride will end the earthly eating when we celebrate in the KofG.
The Jewish leaders did not comprehend that the Messiah would come as God in the Flesh, the Son of Man who is His first coming came in mercy and His next coming will be for judgment.
Seems you missed the point of the video
I Agree Trnsub is wrong. John 6: 63 is Not Wrong powerful words of Jesus that impart His Spirit for Life
I never said you should not have the Lord's supper or that it's wrong. But you either believe Jesus was speaking literally which is Catholicism or he was speaking figuratively about faith which is the consistent theme throughout the scriptures. If you believe he's speaking literally then you have to justify the sacramental system because you have to do something physical in order to be saved. That's the issue.
Tudor,
There is a difference between literalism (Cannibalism) and literal (Spiritual by embodied Word and power of Spirit which is gifted to faith. John 6: 63 is all gift of a supernatural eating in which we do not do anything but receive the supernatural food through faith - no words can explain it - the gift is given and must be separated from performance and rituals. We cannot add to the work of Christ as you well know. I am merely affirming GIFT received through faith of supernatural life that comes from the risen Christ. No DOING on our part, only the celebration you wish to say.
I am sorry that your astute perceptions, and anti-RC, which are right block the clear reading of John 6(: 63) - no symbolic, but very real eating of a supernatural meal by Word & Spirit, received in faith.
The early Protestant reformation rejected John 6 as to do with the Lord's Supper because of anabaptist teaching. You are right that we receive it, but that it is not merely a memorial meal, but an ONTOLOGICAL IMPARATATION OF A SUPRANATURAL, INCOMPREHENSIBLE GIFT.
I understand literalism AS cannibalism, and literal AS supernatural gift and just as we are the body/temple of Christ on earth hold to the clear words of God: "my body and blood given and shed for you for the forgiveness of your sins" is a tangible gift of faith, a reassurance, not a human work.. I cannot imagine that the New Covenant is less than the Old, nor a return to the Old. Are we really divided or just misunderstanding each other.
The NT rejects works but not gifts. Jesus' words of INSTITUTION are gifts. May God help us all draw together in spirit and truth for that is His Word (Jh 17: 7), one Incarnate now by His Grace we can participate in something beyond imagination, incorporated into Him - body and temple.
Regardless, you should continue your awakening of others by what you do, as your content is very worth while.
You are creating a category that does not exist, that is neither here nor there, which is really just mysticism and gnosticism. There are over 30 times in the gospel of John were Jesus speaks figuratively and in parable. This is not an exception. The central issue of the gospels, especially John, is faith. Believe. Believe. Believe. Believe. It is written everywhere. That is the issue. A symbol for believing is consuming or eating or partaking of or drinking, and this is consistent with the Old Testament. It is not just a cognitive belief, but a full participation, a trusting relationship that is intimate. That's the kind of belief we are called to.
So when you invent something about a physical thing that must be done and call it a "supernatural" situation, you are now bringing in confusion to something that was being stated spiritually to address a heart issue. Luther couldn't let go if his Catholicism when it came to the Eucharist and oscillated much like you are expressing with all sorts of confused ideas that were neither here nor there, neither full on transubstantiation nor as a symbol of faith by way of fellowship with other believers.
The moment you want to ascribe a "supernatural" quality to getting together and eating with other believers you are one step away from Catholicism. The supernatural quality is in a spiritual bond shared by believers as they share a meal in memory of Christ. Beyond that you get into mysticism, and delineating a specific action that must be done that is necessary for salvation -- because after all, if it is supernatural in some kind of physical way then why wouldn't true believers do it as a sign of them being saved? You're getting into murky territory.
The central issue of John is faith, and the Jews' struggle was accepting Jesus as God and believing and trusting in Him as God. That is the hard teaching. If that's the case then the Lord's supper is about having communion with other believers in remembrance of Jesus as God, as the propitiation and as the future Redeemer that is returning. Is such a meal spirit filled and "supernatural" in the sense that the Spirit would be guiding the interactions? Yes. I agree.
Is there a supernatural, quasi-transubstantiated situation where you are consuming supernatural spiritual food that's physical food but actually is spiritual food too because somehow it has a supernatural quality because of you initiating the Lord's supper? No. That's just Catholicism without openly being called Catholicism. So learning to rightly divide is important, and I don't get the sense that you distinguishing what supernatural actually is according to the bible.
Tudor,
Respectfully, you believe in a super/supranatural God and that “The supernatural quality is in a spiritual bond shared by believers as they share a meal in memory of Christ. Beyond that you get into mysticism,” You cheery pick your words, YOUR words, not Christs. You make enemies of the plain words of Christ in the Context for which He came - to establish a New and Greater Covenant by which we do NOT reduce His Words (HIMSELF) to less than He is, a super/supranatural God. I have NOT supported transubstantiation, NOR mysticism. You make inferences and further divide the Word of God. Let the mystery of the Lord’s Supper stand beside the mystery of the Incarnation and the Ascended Lord who enables us to share in both tangible and verbal presentations of His Presence - BOTH THROUGH FAITH ALONE. It is easy to make enemy of all Christendom, stand alone as the superior interpreter of Scripture, than receive a merciful gift of Jesus’ Body and Blood, clearly not canabilistic, as the LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD. It is all by faith!!!!!!!!!!! Alone!!!!!!!!! Why doubt and accuse???????? IF THE LIFE IS IN THE BLOOD, then it is clear in the OT that sacrifices of any flesh and blood did not have saving life. They were prefigurations, types, of Jesus’ Body and Blood to come, whose body and alone we can receive any benefit done. That is not a work of man, but God coming into us in HIS MYSTERIOUS GRACE.
If we reduce The Lord’s Supper to a symbolic gesture then did Jesus really need to die and shed His body? I believe that is the heresy of Docetism - He only seemed to have taken on flesh and blood, or a modified ‘that He did so till before He suffered and died’ (yet He daily bore our sins and griefs). There are many variations of heresies. Having FAITH and BELIEVING are not false opposites to RECEIVING THE VERY WORDS AND GIFTS OF CHRIST. THERE IS NO WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS IN RECEIVING. THAT IS A TWIST, A SLANT. The Church Fathers and Great Reformers were not perfect. All who received the Gospel of Christ by faith will be saved (the Gospel of Christ:1 Corinthians 15: 3-4; I John; etc you know the summaries). No one gets into heaven by a perfect score card, having all of the answers, not me, not you, not professors. I am going to take their lead and trust that you are still teachable and humble to learn. Faith = believing the words of the WORD who draws us into Mystical Union (1 Peter), by a greater covenant (Hebrews) than?? The Old!!! The Gospel of John repeats over and over that He gave His Body and Blood for the forgiveness of our sins. People can read the words for themselves. It is not how many times a key word is used that proves your or my point. It is what each key word points to - Christ, His sacrificial death once for all to end the old and take us into Himself by faith in His very words. There is nothing that turns those words I just wrote into a human work.
The glory in believing is not in symbolism, but in Divine mystery and the fulfilment of God’s New Covenant for the forgiveness of our sins. That is not transubstantiation, nor is it re-sacrifice. Those Papal pompous rites and abuses, as you know, migrated into some sort of sacerdotal/sanctified abuse of vestry boys. But you are well informed so we can agree on that history. Believe, believe, believe, believe - what? In The Person, the Words, Acts and Gifts of Christ, whose word is effectual. My participation in Holy Communion is not my work, but a Divine Gift and Privilege we are given in communion with all who truly believe..
May God 'Sanctify/consecrate us in His Truth' Jh 17:17 (Ps 96)
Tudor,
Respectfully, you believe in a super/supranatural God and that “The supernatural quality is in a spiritual bond shared by believers as they share a meal in memory of Christ. Beyond that you get into mysticism,” You cheery pick your words, YOUR words, not Christs. You make enemies of the plain words of Christ in the Context for which He came - to establish a New and Greater Covenant by which we do NOT reduce His Words (HIMSELF) to less than He is, a super/supranatural God. I have NOT supported transubstantiation, NOR mysticism. You make inferences and further divide the Word of God. Let the mystery of the Lord’s Supper stand beside the mystery of the Incarnation and the Ascended Lord who enables us to share in both tangible and verbal presentations of His Presence - BOTH THROUGH FAITH ALONE. It is easy to make enemy of all Christendom, stand alone as the superior interpreter of Scripture, than receive a merciful gift of Jesus’ Body and Blood, clearly not canabilistic, as the LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD. It is all by faith!!!!!!!!!!! Alone!!!!!!!!! Why doubt and accuse???????? IF THE LIFE IS IN THE BLOOD, then it is clear in the OT that sacrifices of any flesh and blood did not have saving life. They were prefigurations, types, of Jesus’ Body and Blood to come, whose body and alone we can receive any benefit done. That is not a work of man, but God coming into us in HIS MYSTERIOUS GRACE.
If we reduce The Lord’s Supper to a symbolic gesture then did Jesus really need to die and shed His body? I believe that is the heresy of Docetism - He only seemed to have taken on flesh and blood, or a modified ‘that He did so till before He suffered and died’ (yet He daily bore our sins and griefs). There are many variations of heresies. Having FAITH and BELIEVING are not false opposites to RECEIVING THE VERY WORDS AND GIFTS OF CHRIST. THERE IS NO WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS IN RECEIVING. THAT IS A TWIST, A SLANT. The Church Fathers and Great Reformers were not perfect. All who received the Gospel of Christ by faith will be saved (the Gospel of Christ:1 Corinthians 15: 3-4; I John; etc you know the summaries). No one gets into heaven by a perfect score card, having all of the answers, not me, not you, not professors. I am going to take their lead and trust that you are still teachable and humble to learn. Faith = believing the words of the WORD who draws us into Mystical Union (1 Peter), by a greater covenant (Hebrews) than?? The Old!!! The Gospel of John repeats over and over that He gave His Body and Blood for the forgiveness of our sins. People can read the words for themselves. It is not how many times a key word is used that proves your or my point. It is what each key word points to - Christ, His sacrificial death once for all to end the old and take us into Himself by faith in His very words. There is nothing that turns those words I just wrote into a human work.
The glory in believing is not in symbolism, but in Divine mystery and the fulfilment of God’s New Covenant for the forgiveness of our sins. That is not transubstantiation, nor is it re-sacrifice. Those Papal pompous rites and abuses, as you know, migrated into some sort of sacerdotal/sanctified abuse of vestry boys. But you are well informed so we can agree on that history. Believe, believe, believe, believe - what? In The Person, the Words, Acts and Gifts of Christ, whose word is effectual. My participation in Holy Communion is not my work, but a Divine Gift and Privilege we are given in communion with all who truly believe.
May God 'Sanctify/consecrate us in His Truth' Jh 17:17 (Ps 96)